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I agree with Savvygirl. I have generally found that anything labeled “Singles” tends to attract people that are not the kinds of people that I want to mingle with. Find things to do and places to go that are not “singles events” but that tend to attract a lot of single people.
Good point, beachbum. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you just go do things that are completely outside your boundaries (although to push your boundaries a little bit I think is always good). To go to Home Depot every day just to hang out would be a little ridiculous. But to go to Home Depot when you need new light bulbs or some fertilizer or some paint or some decorative advice … is certainly within reason. Again, it all goes back to what kind of effort you are willing to put in, the level of ambivalence you feel, and how much you are willing to push yourself.
What I’m trying to say is what kinds of activities you engage in should always be driven primarily by your likes and dislikes. But sometimes, you have to push yourself and yes sometimes … you even have to go out of your way a little bit to find reasons to do something a little different.
Do you think I would normally be going out of my way to paint? To sculpt? To cook? No, but these are examples of things that I might say to myself … why not just give it a try, I’ll probably enjoy it and you never know who you might meet. Another example? Whenver I meet my friends for dinner, I always go at least 30-45 mins early and go have a drink at the bar. Sometimes they join me, sometimes they don’t. Do I do this because I love alcohol? No. I do it to be social, because it’s nice sometimes to settle in to dinner after having had a drink, and because you just never know who else is going to be at the bar.
Hard for me to relate to opportunities in a smaller city because I’m in the greater NYC area. Also, I think it is highly dependent upon age group. I have heard it suggested that women should put themselves into situations where you might find other men around. Examples … Home Depot or the men’s dept at Macys maybe? The gym might be another potential place. Maybe it is time for a new hobby? Also, in the NYC area, they have these things like paint nights, sculpture nights, cooking sessions, game nights, etc. Another possibility might be events at a Church or temple – you often don’t have to be religious to attend them. Even hanging around a park on a Sunday afternoon on a nice day. What about dog parks or places where a guy might be walking his dog?
Yes, mariposa … I agree with what you wrote and completely understand. And yes, it’s a real crapshoot … even if you do manage to meet that person for a date, what are the odds of it working out? I want to say a couple of more things about this, though.
First, one thing that I don’t think people think through when they online date that this is just not likely to “take off” with the kind of sizzle where your knees are going to wobble vs. the traditional way of meeting someone. The entire tone is different, even if you ARE immediately attracted to someone – there are doubts, there is no vetting, you don’t know much about the person, etc. It seems to me that if you are going to online date, you almost HAVE to be willing to be more patient and give the other person another shot or two if you think or feel that there COULD be something there. I find that most people (at least in the NYC area) are of the “gotta have it yesterday” mentality and have their expectations set too high for first online dates. It’s just rare that this happens – even in non-online dating.
Secondly, imagine being a guy … and taking the time to create and send dozens of attempts with nice opening emails catered to the individual profiles (when the profiles actually have enough in them to customize an email!) and getting absolutely no response or getting responses only to have people disappear/flake (and yes, we follow the general rule of going right to asking for a phone number after 2 or 3 emails and don’t allow it to become penpals) or getting a phone number only to not receive a return phone call … and to have this happen over and over and over again. Quality, good men who are average looking at worst, attractive at best … with good careers and who treat women nicely. Think about what eventually is going to happen just given human nature. People are going eventually feel that they are banging their heads against the wall and stop trying. You see how much more at peace you are being away from it!
So what I am trying to say is … imagine if everyone on online dating sites would give it say … another 10% effort. Another 10% of their time OR respond to another 10% of the emails they get OR go out on another 10% of the dates they’ve been going on or respond to another 10% of the phone calls that they get. Imagine if people really pushed themselves to make more of an effort to get past their fears and ambivalence. Imagine if people really viewed this as “it’s only a date and I have complete control over whether I leave early or I go out with him again or I kiss him goodnight”. I personally think people just take the easy way out with this online stuff. It’s easier to just stay in the candy store and look until or unless that tall hot-looking charismatic Wall-St investment banker comes along. I don’t mean to be harsh, but I will tell you that my friends and I have actually done searches on online dating sites where we eliminate the hottest looking women and look for others and try very hard to take a 2nd look at some others asking ourselves if we think we could “like them” even if they didn’t necessarily stand out at first glance. It all goes to the amount of effort you are willing to put in.
You’re absolutely right, beachbum. It’s a lot of work. But nothing important in life comes easy … without putting work in. Especially using a mechanism that essentially isn’t much more than a random blind date. Online dating is a medium that SHOULD open up all kinds of potential … think of the numbers of people that you have the ability to date that you wouldn’t if it weren’t for online dating … how many new potential opportunities it opens up. And compare the statistics to how many people you have the chance to meet in non-online everyday life. It takes work and patience.
Now … with that said, I completely understand what you say when you use the phrase “with very little payoff”. For us guys, we can sometimes write dozens of women before we even get a response and then that response will frequently flake or send a number and not pick up or return the phone call. Or talk to you expressing interest and then flake. Or plan a date with you and then cancel. This is why my friends and I have essentially given up on online dating. As I wrote before, one gender’s ambivalence breeds the ambivalence in the other gender and vice-versa.
So … we’re stuck in this quagmire where no one wants to put in the effort because they know that there’s very little payback. It’s too bad, it offers a lot of potential.
Yep, that’s the problem. Each gender uses online dating and apps and each becomes the victim of the other resulting in disappointment … so many times that each gender builds up resentment of the other’s behaviors. That in turn leads to generalizations and frankly, ambivalence. Each person becomes ambivalent because of the ambivalence of the other gender.
I’m glad you still are hopeful, still open, and I hope you meet someone great!
“Men behave differently when they’re on-line – they lie, they disappear, they never give you a proper chance, they feel like they have so many choices, that they treat you like just one in a long list of “maybe”s.”
You may be surprised to know that men feel exactly this way about the way women behave with regards to online dating. You have no idea of how many times my friends and I have been given the disappearing act, been given a number but then it’s never picked up or the call is never returned, etc. We feel exactly that way – that women have so many choices in guys pursuing them that they find it easy to cast anyone aside. And we find that the majority of women lie about either age, weight, or have extremely old pictures. We see women that have behaved in this way … months and years later still on the sites with no breaks … clearly indicating some kind of issues either fear/ambivalence, commitment-phobia, or just the false thinking that SOMEONE perfect will come along eventually. So it’s not only guys.
I think it’s online dating and app dating in general. In the old days, you met someone … you both knew you liked each other, there was no intimidation, you went out. Or someone fixed you up … and you both made an effort to go on a few dates to see if it could work.
Face it. In today’s world, everyone “has to have it yesterday”. There is no patience. There is no effort. And online/apps … are a virtual candy store. No one wants to take risks/chances even though it’s only a date. If you aren’t presented with the perfect person at the other end … sure you’ll play a little bit online … but you’re not inclined to make the effort.
Very simply … online dating works ok (not great, just ok) for younger people. Because generally speaking, younger people are less risk-averse and are motivated to want to find someone of quality to settle down with and have a family. But as people get older, have more “bad experiences”, and get near or past childbearing age … there is less motivation to make the effort and take risks.
This is one of the hardest parts about being single. I think I’ve lost multiple sets of friends that I loved dearly multiple times in my life because they got married and I remained single. I’m grateful that for the past several years, I’ve had 3 good high-quality single male friends that I’ve been able to hang out with. We generally don’t have these kinds of discussions (obviously) because we’re all single.
Eventually, though, you are confronted with these types of things. What about weddings? Ugh. Walking down the street and seeing a couple with two little children all walking arm in arm, knowing that I will never know that feeling. I got a complaint from a married female friend a few weeks ago that she is stressed because she has to put two kids through college now. I get it. Life, whether you are single or not, always presents stress. I try my best to be empathetic. But it does make me sad.
The only advice I can give is to try to seek out making single friends and spend most of your time with them.
Obviously, we cannot see each other here so it is difficult to judge. Sometimes, we are our own worst critics and when others look at us, they don’t see it “as bad” as we do. But some of us guys have the same issue to some extent. You’ll likely feel as a woman that it doesn’t affect us as much because we are the aggressors/approachers and don’t have to wait to be approached. I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. If you are a “less attractive” guy, it won’t matter how many approaches you make, you will still end up with the same problem as a “less attractive” woman.
So with that said, let’s even assume that there are some unattractive people out there. All I can say is that there are certain things that are within your control and within your ability to help yourself.
Losing weight is one of the most difficult things in life to accomplish. I tried for years and finally managed to lose 30 lbs. I’m not rail-thin, but I’m better than I was. I started going to the gym to tone myself and managed to get my arm and chest muscles to look more appealing. Women can tone themselves and possibly lose weight also (although I understand that it’s easier said than done). Maybe you can get contacts instead of glasses or a new style of glasses. Sometimes, even a new style of clothing or new wardrobe can help … or even a new hairstyle (try seeking out the advice of a stylist). I changed mine from parted on the side to a more “spiked” look.
We can’t change the fundamental way that we look, but we can make tweeks and improvements in areas that we can control. I can’t be sure that for me it’s made a giant difference, but I do feel better about myself and I hope that these things made at least a little bit of a difference. Now … if I could only find a way to go from 5’8″ to 6’0″ … the #1 issue that women have with men :-).
It can be very very difficult. Especially when you haven’t met anyone in a long time. There seem to be people out there with boundless optimism and enthusiasm no matter what the circumstances are. I think this trait is hereditary. If you have it, great … no matter what you will always feel optimistic. But if you don’t, one needs to see some “results” periodically in order to retain that optimism. I’m not sure what to say except if you think you have it in you, try to find ways to believe in yourself … reach down and capitalize on what you know is good about yourself and what others have pointed out is good about you … even if it’s not directly associated with dating. You can only do your best.
If you are not able to do this, from personal experience, I think the only way to get that optimism is to have those periodic positive experiences and if they don’t come, it’s going to be difficult to develop and retain it. For me, it’s been too long with too few successes and in my 50s, I’ve pretty much lost hope. As much as I love being in love and I would love to be with someone very much, I try to go on with my life as best I can … spending time with my friends and relatives … enjoying the things I enjoy and get pleasure out of as much as possible … and just figure that just maybe at some point … it might happen but I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t. It’s all in whether you are positively reinforced or not.
Interesting blog entry from a dating coach on one facet of this whole “nice guy” thing. He also notes that the answer isn’t so simple: http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/guys-who-call-too-much-or-guys-who-dont-call-enough/
Wow. So is this something that you’ve heard from other women also? That they avoid nice guys because essentially it’s “easier” to deal with the letdown or hurt from someone that they expect it from? Oy, I think I am going to jump out the window right now LOL!
From my own perspective, there is a big range of “nice guys”. The issue (I thought) with the extreme nice guy was lack of backbone and doormat qualities. You know, the guy who calls for a first date and asks “so where do you want to go?” and offers no strong opinions on things. There are those of us who are “nice”, but not “THAT nice” :-). Plan dates, have opinions, can back you up against the wall and become passionate … but who still treat women nice and aren’t jerks or just don’t have that “mysteriousness” or biting sarcasm in their manner. I had thought that the issue women had with “nice guys” was with the former … no backbone and no initiative just being very unappealing as a man. The man to some degree needs to take charge because that is part of what creates attraction.
Very interesting. But at some point, surely most women realize that continuing to date the jerks is highly unlikely to yield anything much but some temporary excitement and fun? My own theory is that as women approach that prime age for childbearing (say late 20s/early-mid-30s), they generally start to want “nice guys” as potential family men and fathers. Then, after 40-45ish when that becomes less and less of a possibility, many tend to go back to just wanting to have fun and being disinterested in “nice guys” because there is no longer an impetus to “settle down”. Mind you, this is just a theory based on the experience of my friends and I in the NYC area because we really do tend to see a lot of women past 40 who remain single and don’t get into relationships or get married. And many of the divorcees who had migrated to the burbs all of a sudden move back into Manhattan (no matter how cramped and expensive it is) once the nest empties … because they want the fast pace, fun and excitement … and those divorcees become part of that same perpetually single crowd. Again, just a theory … and I’m not saying it’s all of them (trying not to fall into that trap of generalizations myself :-))
Hi Lonestar.
Well, thanks. I wish there were more women out there like you.
I want to say that I can completely understand the “perception” that an unmarried or lack of relationship history guy creates on the part of women. I too have been hurt and it’s perfectly natural to look to minimize the risk of getting hurt again.
At this point in my life … largely but not solely because of this … I have missed out on the chance to have a family, I am an only child caring for an aging widowed Mom who I love dearly, and seeing what she is going through … I am deeply concerned about being alone when I am her age. It’s all very unfortunate.
But what I want to know is this. Why can’t women, who are wonderful creatures and who have attained so much in the recent past with regards to showcasing their intellect and their independence and liberation … use that intellect and their “gut” to get to know someone first? I’ll grant you that what you mention is possible with men, but why SO scared? When someone is a serial dater and watches porn or sleeps around, usually you can get a sense for what he’s about if you date him a 3, 4, 5 or so times (before you are heavily invested). Why do you have to “give up the goods” so quickly? I can assure you that if a man won’t stick around as long as you want to wait, he’s not in it because he likes you he’s in it to sleep with you. Anyone who really wants to get to know you will stick around. Why not assert yourselves and use your gut?
Instead, I hear so many stories from women about how guys who managed to pass this marriage or relationship test … ended up hurting them. There seems to be a mistaken perception that men are somehow proven from a relationship or a marriage history.
You know, we all have a tendency to make generalizations and when we do so, we take a risk. And even Sara can make invalid generalizations.
I can tell you that I have 3 wonderful qualify guy friends who have never been married. We are all in our 40s/50s. We all have good hearts, treat women wonderfully, don’t have another agenda, and would have been thrilled to be with a good woman. Three of us have limited relationship experience. Some were just painfully shy when we were younger and it took years for us to break out of it (some via years of therapy). For some of us, it simply just was never easy to meet people and to date. One was physically abused by his father when he was younger but has worked through that and is not an abusive or violent person at all. Another lost two sisters early in life. Two of us have pretty much given up because we are weary of putting in so much effort for so little gain. And when I say “little gain” I mean absolutely no success … even no dates at all over a period of years and in being virtually ignored on dating sites or apps. The other two I fear will get there soon. It just almost becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy after a while and as a man, I can’t even begin to tell you what this does to your psyche.
Yet I can assure you we are all wonderful men but we are all very frustrated. I myself took my last gf on a wonderful Valentine’s Day date overlooking the NY skyline that I planned months ahead of time, I didn’t push her to have sex sooner than she wanted to, I had food delivered to her apt when she was sick, brought back gifts for her when I went on trips, etc. I know it’s tough to know from reading my post over the internet, but do I sound like someone who watches a lot of porn or sleeps around or is single by choice?
In short, I would urge women to consider the following (and I apologize for the length of this post):
1. Women have control. You are the gatekeepers. There is nothing to force you to continue to date someone or to invite him in or have sex with him any sooner than you want to.
2. Generalizations are valid sometimes moreso than others and you could be missing out on someone great by following them and in fact, you could be putting yourself at MORE risk by following them. A man who has been divorced twice is a better risk than someone who’s single never married? I think it’s not good to fall into the trap of generalizations.
3. Life (and dating especially) is all about taking risks. You’ve heard the expression “No Pain, No Gain”. There is simply no way to get to the goal of a solid LTR without risk (and without some pain). Why … is it acceptable to take the risk to endure the pain of having been with the wrong man due to his being a jerk or being in TOO many relationships as opposed to someone who hasn’t?
4. If one DOES decide to give a “limited relationship” guy a chance? Don’t barrage him with third-degree questions solely about his past relationships. But DO try to get to know him in a natural way. Try to discern what’s in his heart! It’s not that hard to do. Ask him about his family. Ask him about his passions. Ask him about what he values in a relationship. About what his relationship goals are or about where he sees himself relationship-wise at 50 or 60.
And thank you for a nice and helpful discussion.
Well, it’s nice to know Lonestar that you have had this experience and that you have changed your point of view. I would only caution that the very fact that at one point you DIDN’T have an open mind tells us that there is an inclination on the part of many people out there not to. And while it is certainly correct that it only takes one (as Sara points out), when the proportion of people who are not open minded is so large (and it gets larger and larger as we get older and you begin to include more and more of the post-divorce population), it really creates a problem.
I’m trying to put a daunting situation in as positive way as I can. But it’s a simple matter of math. When such a large proportion of the population jumps to conclusions about people with the willingness to get to know them, the reality is that it makes it very difficult … not only to find someone with an open mind, but to maintain the desire to keep trying and the positive attitude that you need when you date when you get shot down so often. Yes, it only takes one. But from a pragmatic perspective, if it begins to look like you have to spend the rest of your life looking for that person … it truly makes sense to make some “adjustments” in your approach. There is a broad spectrum between outright lying and being totally honest with a lot of area in between. You can also try to deflect such conversation until a later date.
I’ve been told bluntly by many female friends that if you are perceived as “inexperienced” or have lack of relationships, you are viewed as damaged goods, as a poor risk, and as someone that there is just something wrong with … and why would they want to date you under those circumstances. That is their perspective. As I pointed out above, virtually no one thinks of the possible good reasons that could have delayed one’s dating or relationship experiences. Not everyone “develops” in life at the same speed.
So … if you want to take the honesty is the best policy approach, that is your prerogative. I frankly got to the point where I realized that it doesn’t work. And I might add that this is with the counsel of at least two good therapists.
And Lonestar … kudos and congrats to you for changing your mode of thinking. Some of us … who maybe don’t have a rich relationship history are truly nice and wonderful people … and are really interested in being with someone and in being a good partner.
You’re absolutely correct! And in my observation (and in the experience of my friends), I would say that 95% of the population in my dating demographic aren’t getting into relationships as a result. Remember, I told you that this starts kicking in with a vengeance after 40. We have experienced a distinct ambivalence about being in a relationship at this point in life to the point where generally, people just don’t want to put in the effort. And unfortunately, unless you happen to get very lucky and both of your knees are wobbling the first time you meet, there is effort that is necessary. Just our expereriences and observation dating in our 40s/50s in the NYC area. I’m glad to hear if you have experienced differently :-).
