- This topic has 27 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Well, it’s nice to know Lonestar that you have had this experience and that you have changed your point of view. I would only caution that the very fact that at one point you DIDN’T have an open mind tells us that there is an inclination on the part of many people out there not to. And while it is certainly correct that it only takes one (as Sara points out), when the proportion of people who are not open minded is so large (and it gets larger and larger as we get older and you begin to include more and more of the post-divorce population), it really creates a problem.
I’m trying to put a daunting situation in as positive way as I can. But it’s a simple matter of math. When such a large proportion of the population jumps to conclusions about people with the willingness to get to know them, the reality is that it makes it very difficult … not only to find someone with an open mind, but to maintain the desire to keep trying and the positive attitude that you need when you date when you get shot down so often. Yes, it only takes one. But from a pragmatic perspective, if it begins to look like you have to spend the rest of your life looking for that person … it truly makes sense to make some “adjustments” in your approach. There is a broad spectrum between outright lying and being totally honest with a lot of area in between. You can also try to deflect such conversation until a later date.
I’ve been told bluntly by many female friends that if you are perceived as “inexperienced” or have lack of relationships, you are viewed as damaged goods, as a poor risk, and as someone that there is just something wrong with … and why would they want to date you under those circumstances. That is their perspective. As I pointed out above, virtually no one thinks of the possible good reasons that could have delayed one’s dating or relationship experiences. Not everyone “develops” in life at the same speed.
So … if you want to take the honesty is the best policy approach, that is your prerogative. I frankly got to the point where I realized that it doesn’t work. And I might add that this is with the counsel of at least two good therapists.
And Lonestar … kudos and congrats to you for changing your mode of thinking. Some of us … who maybe don’t have a rich relationship history are truly nice and wonderful people … and are really interested in being with someone and in being a good partner.
Thank you to everyone for your responses. I really appreciate all the different perspectives and suggestions, as well as knowing there are others out there who share the same experience. It’s so great to find a group of people who get it.
This is a big mental barrier for me when dating, and I know it’s something I need to get over. I’m working to shift my thinking so that a negative reaction is a reflection on the person I’m dating rather than on how I see myself. I definitely agree with those who said that it won’t matter to the right person (and I love Sara’s story about how her husband responded, as well as the other success stories people have shared). It gives me hope that maybe I shouldn’t give up yet and some much needed motivation to keep trying.
And Lonestar … kudos and congrats to you for changing your mode of thinking. Some of us … who maybe don’t have a rich relationship history are truly nice and wonderful people … and are really interested in being with someone and in being a good partner.
I do hear people say things about guys that are of a certain age and not married and it does bother me. ne is that if he isn’t married by the time he’s 30+ you can bet he’s sleeping around or watching porn (or both) and I’ve always been adamant about not stereotyping guys as just sex-crazed maniacs who can’t control themselves.
I’m really sorry that your experience has been so terrible. I think the reason it is even harder for men to be excused for not being married by a certain age than women (even though as evidenced by books, articles and the fact that this forum exists, many women are single past the age they “should be” married), is because the biggest complaint for women is not finding the right guy who isn’t just looking for superficial things, who isn’t intimidated by success blah blah, etc etc. As Sara I believe said in an interview, society believes “men are single by choice, women are single because no one wants them”. “Women are a dime a dozen, but a good man is hard to find”, etc etc. But that doesn’t mean that guys can’t find it equally hard to find a person they truly connect with and not want to just marry for the sake of marriage.
We all have prejudices and biases and it’s when we choose to acknowledge them and open our minds to the alternative that we can bring about changing certain ways of thinking.
Hi Lonestar.
Well, thanks. I wish there were more women out there like you.
I want to say that I can completely understand the “perception” that an unmarried or lack of relationship history guy creates on the part of women. I too have been hurt and it’s perfectly natural to look to minimize the risk of getting hurt again.
At this point in my life … largely but not solely because of this … I have missed out on the chance to have a family, I am an only child caring for an aging widowed Mom who I love dearly, and seeing what she is going through … I am deeply concerned about being alone when I am her age. It’s all very unfortunate.
But what I want to know is this. Why can’t women, who are wonderful creatures and who have attained so much in the recent past with regards to showcasing their intellect and their independence and liberation … use that intellect and their “gut” to get to know someone first? I’ll grant you that what you mention is possible with men, but why SO scared? When someone is a serial dater and watches porn or sleeps around, usually you can get a sense for what he’s about if you date him a 3, 4, 5 or so times (before you are heavily invested). Why do you have to “give up the goods” so quickly? I can assure you that if a man won’t stick around as long as you want to wait, he’s not in it because he likes you he’s in it to sleep with you. Anyone who really wants to get to know you will stick around. Why not assert yourselves and use your gut?
Instead, I hear so many stories from women about how guys who managed to pass this marriage or relationship test … ended up hurting them. There seems to be a mistaken perception that men are somehow proven from a relationship or a marriage history.
You know, we all have a tendency to make generalizations and when we do so, we take a risk. And even Sara can make invalid generalizations.
I can tell you that I have 3 wonderful qualify guy friends who have never been married. We are all in our 40s/50s. We all have good hearts, treat women wonderfully, don’t have another agenda, and would have been thrilled to be with a good woman. Three of us have limited relationship experience. Some were just painfully shy when we were younger and it took years for us to break out of it (some via years of therapy). For some of us, it simply just was never easy to meet people and to date. One was physically abused by his father when he was younger but has worked through that and is not an abusive or violent person at all. Another lost two sisters early in life. Two of us have pretty much given up because we are weary of putting in so much effort for so little gain. And when I say “little gain” I mean absolutely no success … even no dates at all over a period of years and in being virtually ignored on dating sites or apps. The other two I fear will get there soon. It just almost becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy after a while and as a man, I can’t even begin to tell you what this does to your psyche.
Yet I can assure you we are all wonderful men but we are all very frustrated. I myself took my last gf on a wonderful Valentine’s Day date overlooking the NY skyline that I planned months ahead of time, I didn’t push her to have sex sooner than she wanted to, I had food delivered to her apt when she was sick, brought back gifts for her when I went on trips, etc. I know it’s tough to know from reading my post over the internet, but do I sound like someone who watches a lot of porn or sleeps around or is single by choice?
In short, I would urge women to consider the following (and I apologize for the length of this post):
1. Women have control. You are the gatekeepers. There is nothing to force you to continue to date someone or to invite him in or have sex with him any sooner than you want to.
2. Generalizations are valid sometimes moreso than others and you could be missing out on someone great by following them and in fact, you could be putting yourself at MORE risk by following them. A man who has been divorced twice is a better risk than someone who’s single never married? I think it’s not good to fall into the trap of generalizations.
3. Life (and dating especially) is all about taking risks. You’ve heard the expression “No Pain, No Gain”. There is simply no way to get to the goal of a solid LTR without risk (and without some pain). Why … is it acceptable to take the risk to endure the pain of having been with the wrong man due to his being a jerk or being in TOO many relationships as opposed to someone who hasn’t?
4. If one DOES decide to give a “limited relationship” guy a chance? Don’t barrage him with third-degree questions solely about his past relationships. But DO try to get to know him in a natural way. Try to discern what’s in his heart! It’s not that hard to do. Ask him about his family. Ask him about his passions. Ask him about what he values in a relationship. About what his relationship goals are or about where he sees himself relationship-wise at 50 or 60.
And thank you for a nice and helpful discussion.
Thanks, eldogg. I’m really sorry that that has been your experience. The other women I’ve talked to, along with myself, usually come across very superficial guys who pass over lots of great girls, so it usually assumed that a man who is at a certain age and never married must be so because he had really unrealistic requests. It’s not right and it isn’t fair, and I hope more women start to look at every man with a clean slate.
In talking to one friend of mine about the “nice guy” and why he’s sometimes scarier than the outward jerk, it seems that some of us are just scared of what we don’t know. It’s easier to deal with the jerk whose fangs you can see than the nice guy who may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I personally have no desire to marry a jerk, nor do I believe marrying a nice guy is an even bigger risk because he’ll be a jerk, too, I just won’t see it coming. But some of us have yet to relinquish the fears, self sabotaging and unhealthy behaviors we have.
Wow. So is this something that you’ve heard from other women also? That they avoid nice guys because essentially it’s “easier” to deal with the letdown or hurt from someone that they expect it from? Oy, I think I am going to jump out the window right now LOL!
From my own perspective, there is a big range of “nice guys”. The issue (I thought) with the extreme nice guy was lack of backbone and doormat qualities. You know, the guy who calls for a first date and asks “so where do you want to go?” and offers no strong opinions on things. There are those of us who are “nice”, but not “THAT nice” :-). Plan dates, have opinions, can back you up against the wall and become passionate … but who still treat women nice and aren’t jerks or just don’t have that “mysteriousness” or biting sarcasm in their manner. I had thought that the issue women had with “nice guys” was with the former … no backbone and no initiative just being very unappealing as a man. The man to some degree needs to take charge because that is part of what creates attraction.
Very interesting. But at some point, surely most women realize that continuing to date the jerks is highly unlikely to yield anything much but some temporary excitement and fun? My own theory is that as women approach that prime age for childbearing (say late 20s/early-mid-30s), they generally start to want “nice guys” as potential family men and fathers. Then, after 40-45ish when that becomes less and less of a possibility, many tend to go back to just wanting to have fun and being disinterested in “nice guys” because there is no longer an impetus to “settle down”. Mind you, this is just a theory based on the experience of my friends and I in the NYC area because we really do tend to see a lot of women past 40 who remain single and don’t get into relationships or get married. And many of the divorcees who had migrated to the burbs all of a sudden move back into Manhattan (no matter how cramped and expensive it is) once the nest empties … because they want the fast pace, fun and excitement … and those divorcees become part of that same perpetually single crowd. Again, just a theory … and I’m not saying it’s all of them (trying not to fall into that trap of generalizations myself :-))
Wow. So is this something that you’ve heard from other women also? That they avoid nice guys because essentially it’s “easier” to deal with the letdown or hurt from someone that they expect it from? Oy, I think I am going to jump out the window right now LOL!
This was just a theory by a friend and I as we were psychoanalyzing ourselves, lol. She had been dating these nice guys and that scared her so we tried to figure out why and that was one explanation. It’s on a subconscious level though, so even if that was the reason we wouldn’t know it except through lots of introspection.
I can speak for myself in saying that I had a LOT of mistrust of men and didn’t really believe there was such a thing as a nice guy, that they were all jerks, but some put it out there and some hid it until they got you. I did a lot of work on myself to trust and believe that there were genuinely wonderful, nice, kind men out there (and that one day I’d meet and marry one :).
Interesting blog entry from a dating coach on one facet of this whole “nice guy” thing. He also notes that the answer isn’t so simple: http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/guys-who-call-too-much-or-guys-who-dont-call-enough/
Now … if we could just figure out how to get people to be willing to do the only thing that allows more “Relationship Variance” to develop.
With age I have become a lot more assertive concerning this matter. I really refuse to justify myself over having been single for several years and I have no patience for people who put me in a defensive position over this. After all, would it be better if I had jumped from one partner to another? What positive things could that say about me?
Those who immediately probe for your relationship history are rude. I try to show some delicacy when I meet someone for the first time. I am not going to ask a divorced guy: “So tell me, why are you divorced?” It does not take a lot of empathy to understand that a divorce is painful so a first meeting is not the time and place to start an interrogation of someone. You need to build more trust first.
If someone would ask me straight away how long I have been single, I would simply say: “Long enough to be ready to fall in love again.” If someone would insist on getting numbers (which would be a big turn-off), I think one should turn things around and ask this person why they are so hellbound on knowing this. We should ask them what their fear is, what they think is our situation.
Fact is that if you would have been married once or more times, they would consider you as “normal”, as someone who is capable of being in a relationship. Seriously? I know plenty of married and divorced people who are very problematic, who really mess up things in their relationships. It is not a quality guarantee, far from that.
Being single, also not being single for a long time, is most of the time not a statement. It is rarely a choice. It is just the way our life played out. Or should we just grab the first man or woman we meet just to have a relationship?LooongTimeSingle, I love your perspective. And you are absolutely right, of course. But … very unfortunately … as much as you can dig your heels in and stand by this posture, what’s “right” and just in this world often doesn’t govern the reality of people’s judgements, people’s prejudices, and people’s decisions. As someone who is single never married and who would love to be in love and have a partner to love … I have been through this dating “ritual” time and time again and given that experience, I know that the people on the “other side” who are making those judgements will dig in their heels as solidly as we do. Could you possibly meet someone (especially past 40) who will be willing to wait to build the trust and take the risk? Highly unlikely but I’m not saying it’s impossible. It’s what I am hanging my hat on, but I have to tell you … it’s like looking for a needle in a haystack.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.